posted on February 28, 2011 in Columns, The Messy Table

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When I started this blog, I was thinking about the on-going lived theology of living with little ones. I wanted to look at parenting as an experiment in the best possible sense: living out your beliefs with those you love.
Well, in the midst of the experimenting this past week, I got laughed at.

posted on February 28, 2011 in Columns, Patricia Schneider

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Yes, I have a large gallstone which certainly explains a lot of symptoms I have been having the past few years. My other surgery is slowly healing.

posted on February 25, 2011 in In Song

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There’s a small book in my bookshelf called “Canadian Vibrations”. Actually, it’s called “Canadian Vibrations Canadiennes,” a unabashedly bilingual collection of traditional Canadian folksongs along with songs by Canadian singer-songwriters.

posted on February 21, 2011 in Columns, Patricia Schneider

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What a week is has been! My sister Mary and her daughter are here as well as Carla and Wally. We finally had the big wedding we missed 50 years ago.

posted on February 21, 2011 in Columns, The Messy Table

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There are two weeks now until Lent, so I thought that this might be a good moment to share some resources with you. Close enough to the date to be immediate, but with time enough for you to still do some planning.

posted on February 16, 2011 in Columns, Miscellaneous, The Messy Table

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“Look at the streets of Cairo; this is what hope looks like.”

Ahdaf Soueif, author of the Booker prize nominated novel The Map of Love.

posted on February 14, 2011 in Columns, Patricia Schneider

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So much has happened the last little while … we have decided not to move. This location across from the lake is so lovely I just can’t give it up. We will manage somehow.

posted on February 7, 2011 in Columns, The Messy Table

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Okay, it’s time for a friendly neighbourhood survey from the Messy Table. Let’s talk tables.

What’s your table like?

posted on February 7, 2011 in Columns, Patricia Schneider

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Oh, the blessings of a church family! Harry stayed home, cuddled up in front of the fireplace but I went to church. It was so good to see everyone. I got so many warm hugs.

posted on February 1, 2011 in In Song

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“Living Faith” presents as solid theology of the Bible. What about “beloving” as well as believing the scriptural text. Here are more ideas for authentic and faithful worship.

posted on February 1, 2011 in News

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Four ministers have been nominated for moderator of the church’s 137th General Assembly. Ballots were sent to presbyteries in December, and the votes will be tallied April 1. Assembly will begin June 5 in London, Ont.

Rev. Iona MacLean didn’t expect to find her calling among small congregations. As a minister’s daughter, she grew up in the bustle of Halifax. But after becoming the first woman ordained in the Synod of the Atlantic Provinces, she took her professionally-trained voice and love of worship to smaller churches, eventually following that calling to her current charge at First, Pictou, N.S., in 1992.

“I have an affinity for what small groups have accomplished, and how the Spirit can still move in us,” she said. “I think small is beautiful in many ways. But we need to encourage people to realize that it’s so because so often it’s the bottom line that’s really governing what’s done, rather than imagination.

“I think one of the things we’re really struggling with in the church is a lack of hope, which is related to a failure of generosity, and I think those affect us at all levels … If we’re discouraged and we see no way out, then there is no way out. But if we’re a people of hope and we trust that the future is in God’s hands, then that energizes us to do more than we can imagine.”

MacLean has served on numerous committees, including the International Affairs Committee where last year she completed a four-year stint as convener, and the 1997 Book of Praise task force. She has been moderator of three presbyteries and the Synod of the Atlantic Provinces, and served on the senate of Knox College, Toronto. She also loves singing with a local group, the PresbySingers, and participates in annual musical productions sponsored by the Pictou Rotary Club.

Rev. Dr. Rick Horst describes himself as a congregational pastor and a strategic planner. During 17 years in St. Mary’s, Ont., and six years in his current charge at St. Andrew’s, Barrie, Ont., he has worked to encourage revitalization and spiritual relationships. In particular, he draws from Kennon Callahan’s Twelve Keys to an Effective Church; Horst was a contributing editor to the 2010 edition of the book, and has led many congregational and presbytery workshops aimed at being more intentional in ministries.

“For me, congregations are the lifeblood of the church,” he said. “I see the church as strong, small congregations. We can emphasize doing better what we do best, and don’t have to try to do everything. Megachurches don’t speak to a lot of people. … It’s about relationship building and training people in congregations to do pastoral care for each other, day to day. That’s what I responded to more than 30 years ago when I felt God’s call to work in a congregation: to help people use their gifts intentionally and missionally. Not for survival, but for mission beyond themselves. To be relational with people. That’s fundamental to me.”

Horst has served on numerous committees including Assembly Council, the restructuring team in charge of the 1991 and 1992 reorganization of national offices, and the Canada Ministries advisory team. He is currently vice-chairman of the board of Barrie’s Royal Victoria Hospital, and a chaplain to two veteran’s associations. He is also an unabashed fan of the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and one of the PCC’s few motorcycle-riding ministers.

Rev. Thomas Kay may have been born and educated in Scotland, but he has ministered exclusively in Canada. Following some successful appointments in northern Ontario during his student days at the University of St. Andrew’s, he was invited to return after graduation. Kay was ordained on Prince Edward Island, and has since served charges in P.E.I., Dartmouth, N.S., Leamington, Toronto, and Guelph, Ont. He currently ministers at MacNab Street, Hamilton, Ont. He was also nominated for moderator in 2008.

“I’ve always been passionate about educational ministries at all levels, but I find I’m more and more concerned with – and focused on – the local congregation as the bedrock of the church, and with the building up and the vitality of local congregations where mission and ministry happen,” he said. “I really think we have to rethink how we do church as a national church and what the national church exists for … If we could have a national conversation and a lot of local conversations that would be a major step forward in helping us figure out our future.”

Kay has been clerk for two presbyteries and moderator of four, has served on the fund for ministerial assistance and theological education committees, and four times on the General Assembly’s committee on business. He has also been involved in church and community activities everywhere he has lived, the most recent of which is Hamilton’s Out of the Cold program, which is hosted by his church twice a week during the winter.

Rev. Dr. Glynis Williams was a trained nurse pursuing a theological education when God pushed her into new territory. In 1984, the palliative care nurse volunteered for a six-month stint working in pediatrics with a church partner in Nicaragua. The experience exposed her to the plight of refugees and changed the course of her life. In 1989 she was ordained to a position working with refugees, and she has served as executive director of Action Réfugiés Montreal, an ecumenical ministry with the Anglican Diocese of Montreal, since its founding in 1994.

“I have a passion for where the church engages and addresses the suffering in our world, and how we find Christ in that,” she said. “It’s about the human condition and what it means to be human, and how God lives within that and how we, as people, live within that. I find it’s about finding hope and giving hope.”

When asked about the church’s future, Williams repeated Jesus’ words: “‘Fear not, for I am with you.’ … The church has always survived and it has always changed. I don’t know what the church will be in the future. It doesn’t make sense to be anxious about it – but to be what the church should be.”

Williams co-authored two 2010 study guides: Staying Rooted in an Uprooted World and Welcoming Refugee Friends to Canada. She has served as interim moderator at several charges, was a member and chair of the Presbyterian World Service and Development committee during the 1990s, and worked for two years as part-time refugee coordinator for PWS&D. She also spent the spring of 2007 in Syria working with the United Nations High Commission for Refugees. She attends St. Columba by the Lake, Pointe Claire.

posted on February 1, 2011 in From the Moderator

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The origin of the expression, “the real McCoy” is very interesting. Trained as a mechanical engineer in Scotland, Canadian-born Elijah McCoy could only find work as an oiler for a railroad in Michigan. As he performed his duties, McCoy became convinced that there had to be a better way to oil a locomotive’s machinery than by bringing the engine to a full stop and oiling the parts by hand. His solution: an automatic, steam-powered lubricating device that oiled the machinery while the engine was in motion, enabling train locomotives and other steam engines to run more efficiently. Many knock-offs of McCoy’s invention were later manufactured, but they broke down easily. So, railroad-purchasing agents always asked for “the real McCoy.” What began as railroad jargon soon passed into the common vernacular.

It’s truly a remarkable story. But it is made even more remarkable when we learn that McCoy was an African American, the son of slaves who had fled to Canada from Kentucky via the underground railroad. Ironically, even though racial discrimination prevented McCoy from landing the type of job for which he was trained and qualified, his hands-on experience oiling the train’s machinery provided just the impetus for his fertile mind to devise an alternative method of lubrication. Just think, the railroad company had “the real McCoy” on their payroll, and didn’t even know it!

We are an ethnically diverse nation, but it is still primarily the faces of white males we see in the boardrooms of our corporations and companies. According to the Canadian Board Diversity Council’s 2010 Annual Report Card, women only hold 15 per cent of board seats, visible minorities 5.3 per cent, persons with disabilities 2.9 per cent and aboriginal peoples only 0.8 per cent. What we see in the boardrooms of our nation’s companies is what we also tend to see in the courts and committees of our denomination.

It was this concern that prompted the Presbytery of Ottawa to overture the 135th General Assembly, requesting the Life and Mission Agency to establish a task force to “study [the issue] and offer a strategy to help the church at all levels … to appreciate and welcome racial and ethnic minorities and to value the skills and spiritual gifts they have to offer.” We’ll hear the results this June at General Assembly in London, Ont.

February is Black History Month, the month set aside in Canada and the U.S. to celebrate the achievements of people such as Elijah McCoy who have contributed so much to the fabric of North American society. Within the PCC, the third Sunday of February has been designated as Heritage Sunday, a time to remember our Reformed history as a denomination and to celebrate our rich heritage.

But we would be mistaken if we assumed that meant we can only celebrate our heritage with bagpipes and tartan. For while the Presbyterian Church in Canada has a rich Scottish heritage, we are an increasingly diverse denomination composed of people who have come from many cultures and nationalities.

The face of the Presbyterian Church is changing. On any given Sunday across Canada one will hear God’s name praised in at least 17 different languages. One of the great challenges and opportunities for us as a denomination is how we can incorporate this rich diversity into the life, ministry and decision-making structures of our church. I’m not exactly sure how we will do it or what the church will look like, but I trust in the One who beckons us forward and invites us to fall in line behind Him. He is the Lord of the dance, and He is the real McCoy!

Blessings.

posted on February 1, 2011 in Beautiful Church

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When I had lost hope
You opened up your doors and your arms.
You found places for me
To help
To learn
And to love.
You listened as I questioned.
You gave me responsibility.
You saw God’s image in me.
When tragedy struck
You held me up
You comforted me.
You are my church.
God in action,
Reaching out in mercy,
Loving, cherishing,
Reflecting God’s glory.

posted on February 1, 2011 in Features

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St. Andrew’s, Sutton, members Leo Teufel, Gayle Clarke, and Brenda and Denver Dickie in the sanctuary.

Whoever said good things come in small packages must have been thinking about St. Andrew’s, Sutton, Ont. The congregation of 20, in a town of about 3,000 near the shores of Lake Simcoe, may be small in numbers, but its heart is practically bursting.

“It’s not the size of the congregation that matters,” said Gayle Clarke, clerk of session at St. Andrew’s. “It’s the commitment. It’s finding what the community needs and fulfilling that need.”

That need comes in the form of a weekly community dinner – going strong now for six years this month – that serves everyone from the homeless to widows to young families, to the deaf community and people living in group homes. They estimate that about a quarter of the meal regulars depend on the dinners for physical sustenance; many of the others simply come for the company and fellowship that is so often found over food.

Despite its popularity, the ministry, which is known throughout the community, isn’t exactly a moneymaker and the organizers are often concerned about funds. “Whenever we get down in our finances, and we wonder how much we’re going to have to kick in out of our own pockets, a cheque from an independent source always shows up,” said Brenda Dickie, an elder, cook team member and baker extraordinaire. “It’s the most amazing thing.

Dinner regulars Heather and Dorothy

“It encourages us because if we weren’t meant to do this, we’d run out of money, and no one would come,” said Dickie. “God wants it to be like this.”

Congregations within the presbytery sometimes send donations their way, and local businesses donate turkeys for special meals. Individuals will often drop by with a tray of food, or pop in at the end of a meal just to wash dishes. Christmas meals can cause their numbers to swell to over 100, though the weekly average is about 60.

Five teams share the cooking duties; two from St. Andrew’s, one each from local Anglican and United churches, and one from St. Andrew’s in Aurora when there’s a fifth Tuesday in a month. Clarke’s husband, Gerry, coordinates the meals. Together, they’ve never missed a dinner – even if it falls on Christmas Day.

John

The ministry began when, during a session meeting, the group discussed how they approached outreach, often giving money to designated charities. “We talked about how that’s the easy way. That we didn’t have to get our hands dirty. We didn’t have to get involved,” said Clarke.

So they started to think about what the community needed – undeterred by stories from other churches that community dinners had already been tried and failed.

“Six people showed up to that first meal,” said Clarke. “But by the end of the month, it was up to about 40 or 50, and we found more people willing to contribute. As we got into it, we found there were a lot of people who needed a lot of things.”

When a member of the deaf community – who are now regulars at the dinners – died last October, St. Andrew’s was asked to hold the funeral, since the woman, who never set foot inside the sanctuary on Sunday morning, said St. Andrew’s was “her church.”

“Many of them feel like when they’ve been here Tuesday night for dinner, they’ve been to church,” said Clarke. “This is church for them.”

And is it?

Murielle and Marilyn

Rev. Kristine O’Brien thinks so. The minister at Trafalgar, Oakville, Ont., was part of the Emmaus Conference held last spring, where presbytery members from across Canada were challenged to re-think church. Many at that conference – O’Brien included – believe the traditional view of church may no longer fit into present society.

“How do we measure church?” O’Brien asked. “Usually by people in pews and money in the plate. But that doesn’t give the whole picture. What about watching lives changed, and mission blossom? Doesn’t that matter too?

“We have to find ways to be self-sustaining without relying on the Sunday morning offering because people are not there,” she continued. “It’s going to need to be different, but what will it look like?”

This is where Rev. Herb Gale comes in. The PCC’s head of planned giving (and Moderator of General Assembly) paid St. Andrew’s a visit last November. “I was struck by the spirit of those engaged in this ministry,” Gale told the Record. “It’s not a group of people sitting around wondering how to keep their doors open. They are spirit-driven. These people have a deep commitment and passion for what God is already doing in this ministry.

“I see them as a real sign of hope for the PCC.”

The cook team from the local United Church (along with some St. Andrew’s folk) in the kitchen after another successful Tuesday meal.

Gale suggested several initiatives to help foster future success including partnering with local businesses that would each pay for, say, a meal a month; establishing a field placement with Knox College, Toronto, where students would fill the pulpit while getting hands-on experience on doing small church ministry that makes a real impact; and moving worship from Sunday morning to Tuesday nights. While there would be no pressure for diners to attend worship, they would come to know that it naturally follows, and if they wanted to attend, they could do so easily.

Gale said this mission model will likely become more and more common, and that small congregations shouldn’t be slated for closure simply because numbers in the pews are low. “[Church growth guru, Kennon] Callahan says it’s not the number of people in the pews but the number of people impacted by the ministry of the church.”

The vitality of St. Andrew’s ministry despite its small size is one reason why interim moderator Rev. Tom Vais has a soft spot for St. Andrew’s. “The presence of Christ is very real, whether inside the sanctuary at 10:00 in the morning, or out in the community. They’re living out what it means to be part of the body of Christ. I see that as church. Not in the traditional sense, but in a very real way.”

posted on February 1, 2011 in People & Places

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West Point Grey dedicated a new church sign for the congregations of West Point Grey and Doorae Korean who are in a covenant relationship with one another in Vancouver. Rev. Sylvia Cleland led the dedication.

posted on February 1, 2011 in News, The Other Six Days

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Video: One Punk Under God: The Prodigal Son of Jim And Tammy Faye is a six-part documentary on Jay Bakker, the self-proclaimed “outlaw preacher” and son of famed ’80s televangelists, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker. After the imprisonment of his father and an estranged relationship with his mother, Jay became an atheist and a drug addict before returning to a life in Christ. One Punk Under God follows the pierced and tattoo-covered Jay Bakker as he leads Revolution Church (which meets at a bar) in Phoenix, Arizona (now a multi-site). See punk-rock style evangelism from a political liberal as Jay battles personal demons and watches much of his church implode after coming out in support of gay marriage.
amazon.com. Search for “One Punk Under God.”

Bible: Experience
The Bible Experience is an audio Bible like no other. This gender-inclusive, complete Bible (Today’s New International Version) is reenacted by a cast of more than 200 African-American public figures, including Cuba Gooding Jr., Blair Underwood, Angela Bassett, Samuel L. Jackson and Denzel Washington.
amazon.com. Search for “The Bible Experience.”

Kitsch: Testamints
Testamints are just what they sound like. Each mint is stamped with a cross imprint and individually packaged with a Bible verse written right on the wrapper. Share your faith while you share good breath! Now available in sugar-free gum too.
testamints.net

Clothing: A Dino-riding Jesus
That’s right! Okay, okay, so this is like a double shot of kitsch and I have pitched the T-shirt company, Zazzle before for some good John Calvin products but this was just too good to pass up.
Search zazzle.ca for: “Jesus is awesome.”

Website: The Voice of the Martyrs
The Voice of the Martyrs is a multi-denominational not-for-profit online magazine first published in 1967. Its founder, Richard Wurmbrand began the magazine shortly after being released from a 14-year prison term in Communist Romania. His crime? Christianity. Ever since, Pastor Wurmbrand has devoted his life to giving a voice to various Christian martyrs around the world.
persecution.com

posted on February 1, 2011 in People & Places

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West Point Grey, Vancouver

Wasaga Beach Community, Ont.

St. Andrew’s, Pictou, N.S.

Cape Breton, N.S.

First, Kenora, Ont.

posted on February 1, 2011 in Features

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This Presbyterian Church of Ours, a slim volume packed with a lot of information and wisdom, history and theology, and a great deal of dry wit, was first published 15 years ago. The author, John Congram, was then halfway through his leadership as editor of the Presbyterian Record. A good writer with a clean style and a crisp sense of humour, a dedicated Presbyterian, a minister, a pastor, a teacher – it was the perfect fit of author and subject.

While Congram was at the Record, June Stevenson was serving her own long career as editor of Glad Tidings for the Women’s Missionary Society. They are dear friends who share many interests and loves, though not necessarily in the same way or for the same reasons.

The Record asked Stevenson to talk to Congram on the 15th anniversary of his book. Here is their conversation.

- Andrew Faiz

June Stevenson: Susan Clarke of the WMS Book Room tells me your book continues to sell a steady few hundred copies every year. What does it feel like to be a best-selling author?

John Congram: That would be nice if it were true. I think the book is a long way from getting to that plateau, even in Canada. However, as a book aimed at a small constituency (the Presbyterian Church in Canada) it has done well. I believe its appeal lies in the fact that it was aimed at the lay membership in the church and it abounds with illustrations, many of a personal nature. One of my favourite authors, Frederick Buechner, said something to the effect that at its heart all theology is autobiographical.
  
JS: This book has come to be an essential handbook for congregations and individuals. I recommended that my session make copies available for elders so they can be more informed about what it means to be a Canadian Presbyterian and share this information with communicant members. It is also a valuable tool for initiating the unchurched into Presbyterianism. What was your purpose in writing this book, John?

JC: I hoped that when a person read this book they would come away feeling that they were proud (in a good sense) of being a Presbyterian and more determined to contribute positively to the best in our tradition.

I hoped they would feel good about our denomination and re-energized to participate in its life. We are an extremely tiny group of people both in the world and among the family of churches. It is easy for us to feel insignificant and to become defensive.
 
JS: That suggests the danger of becoming insular, which many have accused the PCC of being. What do you think about that, and where do you think the PCC stands today on ecumenical participation?

JC: If we are insular we don’t do a very good job at it. Studies indicate that among all mainline denominations, the Presbyterian Church loses more of its members to other denominations. If this is the price for being ecumenical we should be prepared to pay it.

It is true that immediately after Church Union in 1925 there was a real danger of our church becoming insular. Our church had experienced a great union of the various branches of Presbyterianism in 1875 so it was not surprising that it was a Presbyterian who suggested the various denominations work more closely together, a suggestion that eventually led to the union in 1925. I think I mentioned in the book that despite numerous attempts by some in the church to have us withdraw from ecumenical movements, like the World Council and the Canadian Council, these were always beaten back. In fact, today the Presbyterian Church, as it has done for many years, carries more than its fair share of responsibility in all of the major ecumenical groups and organizations.

I also hoped that the book would help folks recover some of the essence of the Presbyterian tradition, that our church at its heart is ecumenical and catholic. We are Christian first and only secondarily Presbyterian.
 

JS: How would you describe the “essence” of the Presbyterian tradition?

JC: Bob Reed (How to Survive Being Presbyterian) says, “Presbyterianism is a series of meetings occasionally interrupted by a worship service.”

The Presbyterian tradition at its best identifies with the one, holy catholic church, emphasizes God and God’s gracious action and decision in Jesus Christ, takes the Bible seriously but not literally. It believes that what we believe is important and that belief should be confessed. It is generous and gracious in spirit (sometimes I think too generous) but tends to be traditional and conservative in theology and thus does not change quickly. I like what the writer and Presbyterian minister, Eugene Peterson, has written: “I grew up virtually without theology but with a lot of emotion and conviction [in a Pentecostal church]. When I found myself in the Presbyterian Church I couldn’t believe what theology could do. In a year I read John Calvin’s Institutes through twice because I was so excited about having a theology – being part of Calvin’s church. It gave me a mental structure to account for other things. It kept emotions from being despotic and unhealthy. I experienced reformed theology as having a kind of cosmic quality – large and orderly.”
 
JS: What can we do to get away from the Scottish influence? It continues to haunt us today. A friend once said to me, Presbyterians are allowed to have sex, they just can’t enjoy it!

JC: Bob Reed says that “many people have sex without guilt; many Presbyterians have guilt without sex.” Living in Toronto today, you still hear commentators lay the blame for almost anything that is bad or goes wrong in the city to “its Presbyterian past.”

I mention in the book how Lloyd Robertson was startled one morning to hear on the radio on his way to work a caller attribute everything evil in our city to the “white Anglo Saxon Presbyterians.” The idea that Presbyterians and especially the Scottish variety were glum and went around trying to spoil everyone’s fun has, of course, some basis in reality.

Presbyterians were leaders in attempting to maintain strict Sabbath observance in Canada. But, quite frankly, this has not been my personal experience with Presbyterians.

Luckily for those of us living in Toronto, distancing ourselves from our Scottish influences is not something we have to worry much about because it is simply happening with an influx of people from Africa, the Caribbean and Asia into our churches.

Indeed, if the Presbyterian Church is to have a continuing presence and influence in Toronto it will largely be because of these folks and the gifts they have brought to our denomination. I hope this will gradually happen throughout the whole church. However, as the saying goes, we shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water. There is much that is valuable and should be preserved in our Scottish heritage.
 
JS: I can’t help but think of the situation with aboriginal peoples. As a church we did our best to follow current thought and government policy at the time but we failed as a denomination to significantly influence their ways, or to bring them to the Christian faith. There are only a handful of ordained aboriginal ministers in our church.

JC: You say, “We did our best to follow current thought and government policy.” But that, of course, was precisely our problem.

To me that is what the early Christian confession, “Jesus Christ is Lord,” is all about. We must be careful never to deify culture or government policy, whether right or left.

An additional question we must deal with is why, among all of the denominations, we seem to stand out in terms of our failure to attract aboriginal people into the leadership of the church. I have often puzzled as to why this is the case.
 
JS: The second strongest group within the PCC is the Koreans but they work more alongside rather than ‘within’ the church. What do you think?

JC: As you may know, I had a long-term relationship with a group of Korean Presbyterians in St. Mark’s, Don Mills. In the beginning they were on the roll of the English-speaking congregation. My dream was to eventually have one congregation with a team consisting of an English-speaking minister and a Korean-speaking minister working with one congregation.

That dream was never realized and eventually the Korean members established themselves as a separate congregation, largely I think, to compete with other Korean congregations in the city. However, they still continue to meet in St. Mark’s. I was moderator of the General Assembly when ethnic Korean congregations were given permission to set up two Korean (Han Ca) presbyteries on a trial basis. Although I didn’t have a vote I supported that decision with the hope that in the long run it would provide for greater participation in our church by our Korean brothers and sisters.

I think the jury is still out on that question. You may recall that ethnic Korean congregations were given the choice whether to remain with an English presbytery or join one of the new Han Ca presbyteries. At least one congregation chose to remain with an English presbytery.

Some were opposed to setting up the Han Ca presbyteries, feeling that once in Canada you should integrate into the church and that setting up separate presbyteries did damage to the unity of the church. However, at this point in our history, given cultural and language difficulties, it was difficult for Korean Presbyterians to fully participate in the presbytery and other courts of the church.

My experience with Korean folk, especially the younger generation, is that they very much want to integrate into Canadian society and this experiment will work out for the best in the end. It will be important for the non-Korean part of the church to constantly work at strengthening our relationship with our Korean brothers and sisters and not allow them to operate in isolation from the rest of the church.
 
JS: That brings me to the role of the PCC in the future. One of your comments to me in our earlier discussions was whether the PCC still has a role to play among the churches and in the world. Indeed, you asked, would it still be around when you finished writing the book? Upon what did you base that hope or sensibility?

JC: I think the problem we face, which most denominations face, is difficulty in presenting a credible and consistent witness to the world. I think we try to do and be too many things and as a result we are not good at much. We attempt to be all things to all people and it isn’t possible.

We have become homogenized. Unless there is some unique aspect to our witness and life (in the past we claimed it was a highly educated clergy and laity that presented a thoughtful and rational view of the gospel to the world) then I think there are good grounds to question whether our denomination has a right to exist.
 
JS: John, you, personally, have a long and varied history in the PCC: Your ministry has included five charges, followed by being Record editor for 14 years. You have served on numerous committees of the national church … etc., etc. You are in the business of ministry. You came from a rather humble background, that is not to say that the offspring of Wingham don’t achieve fame, as with Alice Munro, yet I would ask what really makes you ‘Presbyterian,’ and not something else?

JC: Sometimes, especially in groups of Presbyterian ministers, I have broached the question of where they would find a home should the Presbyterian Church cease to exist. The United Church, as many might expect, has never been the most popular response. Some said they would seek a home among the Lutherans, a few others with the Anglicans. For me, I think I would look to some branch of Mennonites. Perhaps it is because my experience with them has always been positive, like working with them in a storefront ministry in Hamilton. But I also think that, in many ways, the approach of the modern Mennonite resonates with what is best in Presbyterianism.

Although, as I recount in the book, it was an accident (or some might say providential) that I became a Presbyterian; I have always felt comfortable in the Presbyterian Church. The most important paragraph in my book is the last one. I think it sums up why I have been happy to remain a Presbyterian all my life. 
  
JS: I’d like to play devil’s advocate here and push some buttons. Is it possible a new and updated book on our church might include some dialogue, if not actual argument on current theological thinking? Take the Record‘s Theology 101 series. In his first article, Two Kinds of Knowledge (March 2009) Rev. Dr. Joseph McLelland deals with religion and science. He says, “… Science must assume order but cannot explain where it came from. If a scientist tries, he becomes a philosopher – or theologian!” He later says, “The Bible teaches that the universe is created, but its account of how this happened is not science or history but Saga (Genesis 1-11).” I know that many persons in the pews are struggling with these issues and are not satisfied with what the church has to say.

JC: I think that what you say is true of people 50 years and older. However, my sense is that younger people are less interested in the question, “Is it true?” than they are in the question, “Is it relevant?”

Young people I know want to know if what the church says and does has any relevance to their everyday struggles and life. Sadly, many conclude that it has no relevance. As a preacher and teacher I always tried to place high value on relevance, otherwise, it seemed to me what we did was only sound and fury, signifying nothing. Many of the ‘successful’ churches in Canada and the mega-churches in the United States draw huge crowds of followers, largely, I believe, because they seek to speak and act in a relevant way. We may sometimes decry their fundamentalist approach to the Bible but we should learn from their practical approaches. Brian McLaren makes this point in his book, A New Kind of Christian.

On the other hand I think you have come up with a great idea for the Record. Why not reprint the articles in Theology 101, provide a study guide to come with them, and make them available to study groups in the church? This could also be made available online.

JS: In the same article, McLelland speaks about how religion can learn from science: “Just as the geocentric (earth-centred) cosmology was displaced by the heliocentric (sun-centred), so the new map of the universe of faiths must shift from a Christianity-centred to a God-centred picture.” These are radical thoughts for a Presbyterian, at least in written form. Is there a place in a book of this kind for exploring current thought? In fact, do you think Presbyterians will ever be able to consider a ‘God-centred’ universe? I suppose this conflicts sharply with one of our most sacred tenets that Christ is the head of the church and it is a slippery slope from there on?

JC: I have always felt that there is a place in the church for the honourable heretic. People who question and push the boundaries are invaluable in the church. By honourable I mean they are sincerely exploring the issues.

One time I said that our purpose in the church is to raise the dead, not simply to raise hell.

However, sometimes the line between the two is extremely fine and easily crossed. When I was considering becoming the editor of the Record, I consulted Al Forrest who had been editor of the United Church Observer. His words have always stuck with me. “The purpose of the editor of a church magazine,” he told me, “is to provide the loyal opposition.”

I must say that I don’t see the conflict you perceive between a God-centred universe and the proclamation that Christ is the head of the church and, I would add, of the world as well. We are, after all, a monotheistic religion, and our allegiance is to God who we see through Jesus Christ. Sometimes we deify Jesus in a way that makes him replace God in our theology.

JS: I would even challenge you on a particular statement from the book. On page 53, in relation to God’s sovereignty, you say, “We do not have a spark of immortality in us.” Is that not the same as having a spark of the divine within us, and don’t we all have that which moves us towards becoming one with a Supreme Being? Is the nature of humankind not divine and that relates to how God longs for us to be with God? As Pamela McCarroll says in Where in the World Is God?!, another article in the series Theology 101 (March 2010): “… our essence reflects the divine image – humans as God made and intended us to be.”

JC: For me there is a big difference between saying that God placed God’s image in us and that each of us has within us a piece of the divine. Over the centuries there has been much debate as to what the image of God in us is. For me it is simply the potential to love and be loved in a way that enables us to be fully human, not divine. To quote a church father, “God’s glory is man fully alive.” If there is a spark of the divine in each of us that would mean a part of us never dies. The Bible contends we really do die and return to the dust from which we were originally made. God then resurrects us.
 
JS: I will let you off the hot seat by pursuing more ‘Presbyterian’ thoughts. One thing that became particularly clear to me from your book was just how much importance Presbyterians place on the mind and education. John Vissers in his March 2009 article in the Record, Teaching the Teaching Elders, emphasized how Calvin thought that the people of God needed to know their Bibles. Vissers says that “we are living at a time when the church … needs [a learned leadership] who can articulate biblical faith clearly, credibly, and compellingly …”

When I came into the Presbyterian Church in the mid-70s I was encouraged by that thinking. My personal journey has been strengthened and enhanced by study and reflection. I like to think that Presbyterians bring to the table their own conclusions, reflecting thought, prayer and study. It seems to me that some of the religions that place more emphasis on ritual lose this kind of personal understanding. Any comment, John?

JC: I think we all need to do the things you suggest. However, the process should never be an individualistic process. Calvin taught that in our attempts to understand the Bible, for example, we should listen to what the Holy Spirit is teaching us through the words of scripture, but we should also test this out by what other passages in the Bible teach, by what our contemporaries in the church teach and by the history of Christian thought.

This is what Richard Mouw, in his book, Consulting the Faithful, describes as the wisdom that dwells, and here he quotes Cardinal Newman, “deep in the bosom of the mystical body of Christ.” We may wish that it was otherwise but all of our relatives in the church, including some who disagree with us and others we don’t like, must be in on the process of discerning God’s will for our lives.

JS: There are current issues with which our church, and others, has been dealing: homosexuality for one. Is there a place in a book of this kind for current thinking as opposed to the church’s stand on the issue?

JC: Perhaps a chapter on important social issues of our time like the question of homosexuality would have enriched the book. However, I had a limit on how large the book could be placed on me by the publisher who, while interested in the subject, wanted to produce a book that could be sold for a profit. It would have been difficult to do justice to even one of these issues in a book like this. But again this might be a worthy project for the brains at the Record such as I have suggested with Theology 101.
 
JS: Most mainline denominations are facing declining membership today. Our society is searching for meaning in other aspects of living. Personally, I am not discouraged. I believe in Presbyterianism. The Presbyterian Church is, for me, the place I want to be. How do you feel about that, and what is your prediction for the future of the church?

JC: Sometimes I have been asked how I can preside at the funeral of a well-known reprobate. I always reply that I am able to do this because I am a Presbyterian. As such I always reserve the first and last word about anyone’s life for God.

I am not in the business of determining the ultimate destiny of anyone. I think I would say the same thing about the Presbyterian Church. Its future is in the hands of God. My task is to be as faithful as I can which sometimes includes being a questioning presence in the church. Sometimes

I think our church is suicidal, such as when it fails to consider seriously cost in terms of personnel and the cost of yearly assemblies. As a result, I sometimes get discouraged but I never despair.
 
JS: Finally, John, you said to me that the last paragraph in the book is for you the most important one. You wrote, and I cut this down to the essential thought, “Within its life, I have been given the freedom to use my gifts, and to fall on my face. Its people have supported me in difficult times and celebrated with me in good times. …Finally, a host of loyal and loving friends in this church family have taught me the truth of Martin Luther’s word: if God is our father, then surely the church is our mother. In her arms I have discovered life.” What would you say about that 15 years later?

JC: I would say, Amen.

posted on February 1, 2011 in Letters

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Re Good News Stories, November

It was good to read the Good News Stories. Have you heard Cannington’s story? They had a beautiful brick church with stained glass windows and lovely woodwork.

In October 2007, a youth deliberately set it on fire. They forgave him, but such a shame, such a shock. They re-invested the insurance money. They needed time to think and pray for God’s guidance. They decided it would be best to join Beaverton and help them build their new church.

On Oct. 3, 2010, they invited presbytery, Beaverton, and others to come to their empty church lot for a service. Then they went to the old stone church at Beaverton for a communion and dedication service.

Cannington is a church that has suffered a great loss. I feel they are doing well to be generous. I think it would be nice to give them some recognition.

Editor responds: We agree completely, and that’s why we’ve featured the newly amalgamated congregation in our News section.

posted on February 1, 2011 in Letters

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Re More Grey Hair in Pews, December News

You realize, of course, much of it has been there all along, masquerading as blonde, brunette and red heads.